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The Curation by Nour Hassan
The Curation, formerly Radical Contemporary, is a Digital Curator and Podcast based between Cairo, Dubai & Jeddah. We curate everything from art, fashion, and design, to culture, wellness and tech to present you with only the best brands, founders, products and pioneers.
The Curation by Nour Hassan
Rebecca Anne Proctor: From EIC to Independent Voice Reshaping Middle Eastern Art Dialogues
What does it take to document a cultural renaissance? Rebecca Anne Proctor never planned to become a journalist, yet her natural curiosity and love for writing led her to the forefront of Middle Eastern art and cultural reporting during its most transformative period.
Growing up between America and Italy with an artist mother and writer father, Rebecca's global perspective was shaped early. After completing studies in art history and Middle Eastern Islamic studies, a weekend trip to Beirut sparked a love affair with the region that turned a planned two-year stay into a 17-year immersion. Her timing couldn't have been more fortuitous – arriving just as major museums were opening, Christie's was establishing its Dubai presence, and regional art publications were emerging.
From her first unpaid article for Business of Fashion to becoming Editor-in-Chief of Harper's Bazaar Art Arabia and Harper's Bazaar Interiors Arabia, Rebecca's journey reflects the region's own cultural evolution. She witnessed firsthand the establishment of the Mathaf Museum of Modern Arab Art, the reopening of cinemas in Saudi Arabia, and the dramatic shifts in how art and culture are supported across the Gulf.
The conversation takes a particularly fascinating turn when Rebecca discusses co-authoring "Art in Saudi Arabia: A New Creative Economy" – the first comprehensive book about contemporary Saudi art during the kingdom's social transformation. She reveals the delicate balance required to present Saudi artists on their own terms while addressing Western concerns about art-washing and freedom of expression. "I was feeling frustrated because I thought reviews weren't really giving Saudi artists and creatives a real chance to speak and be visible on their own terms," she explains.
Rebecca's career advice, born from her background as a trained ballerina, resonates beyond journalism: persist through challenges, maintain self-care practices, and remain open to unexpected opportunities. Now dividing her time between Rome and Dubai, her story exemplifies how building bridges between cultures can create something truly extraordinary. What cultural shifts are you witnessing that deserve deeper storytelling?
Follow @rebeccaanneproctor on Instagram for more.
action. Welcome to the curation, a show for the culturally curious. This is your host, noor hasan. Each week, I'll guide you through a curated edit of the finest in art, fashion, design, culture, luxury, wellness, tech and more. This is your go-to space for discovering trailblazing ideas, untold stories and meaningful conversations with innovators and creators who are shaping our world. There's no gatekeeping here, so sit back, tune in and let's discover only the best together.
Speaker 1:In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Rebecca Ann Proctor. Rebecca is a journalist, author, editor and art advisor. She's also the ex-editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar Art Arabia and Harper's Bazaar Interiors Arabia. She has contributed to magazines across the region. She has contributed to magazines across the region such as Arab News, canvas Magazine, artnet and many more. Rebecca also co-authored Art in Saudi Arabia A New Creative Economy with Dr Princess Alia El-Sinousi. We go through everything in this episode, from the beginning of her career to moving to the Middle East, living between Dubai and Rome, and so much more. So I hope you enjoy and learn so much from Rebecca's incredible career trajectory as I have. Thank you. Right now I am speaking to Rebecca Ann Proctor and, honestly, I don't think you need very much of an introduction in the region regarding you know, as a journalist and also as a writer, but I definitely want the audience to get to know you more during this podcast and I know that they're going to be super excited for this episode. So thank you so much, rebecca, for being on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me, Noor. I've really been looking forward to this.
Speaker 1:Amazing. So I think we'll start at the beginning, because I feel like your career is one that is truly so aspirational and a lot of young individuals will want to learn how it is that you got started at the beginning. So I would love to know what led you to a career in journalism to begin with.
Speaker 2:Thanks again for having me, noor. I've been asked this question before and I think it's always interesting because I never planned to be a journalist. I always loved writing since I was a kid, actually growing up. I would always keep diaries and summer, because my mother's an artist, my father is a writer, a retired professor of Italian literature, and so I just love writing about everything that I saw and the people that I met, and I used to love going to the airport. Strangely enough, now I sometimes dread it.
Speaker 2:But I loved going to the airport and seeing people from all over the world. I was just really curious. I was fascinated by you know what they were wearing, you know how they were acting um the different languages. So I've always been just an extremely curious person and I've always wanted to travel um and learn about new places and people. And so this career in journalism in some ways is just something that, whether I found it or it found me, it just kind of organically happened because I am American.
Speaker 2:I grew up in Connecticut but we moved to Rome when I was in high school and I ended up finishing high school and also university in Rome and then I did a master's in art history in London, in modern contemporary art history, and again, I loved writing the papers on art. I was always something that I excelled at was writing and editing. And then I ended up going to Paris to do another master's. I wasn't ready to work full time. I had had my first gallery job in. I wasn't ready to work full time. I had had between growing up in Italy, the Mediterranean, traveling, and I just really was drawn to the Arab world, and so it was there that I was studying Middle Eastern Islamic studies, nothing art related within this regional focus, but a lot about the history, the culture, the politics, the economics. And again, I loved writing my papers. A lot of students didn't really, it was sort of a big chore and they're not easy to do, but I just loved doing the research and the writing. And so then I took my first trip to Beirut with friends one weekend and I just really fell in love again with the Middle East, and so that was more proof that I should just try and live in the region. And that took me to the Gulf after graduating and I thought I would stay in the Gulf in Abu Dhabi. That was my first city. I thought I would stay there for maybe two or three years and I ended up. Obviously I'm still here 17. I think it's around 17 years later, but I was writing on the side. So, between you know, it was also a really difficult time to graduate from graduate school then, because it was 2008.
Speaker 2:I graduated from my second master's in Paris. You know, stock market crash, it was really difficult to find work and I, you know, I was looking for different opportunities and obviously I found something in Abu Dhabi, but I had started writing on the side. So I actually had started making a little money here and there, just with articles. My first article I ever published was actually for free, it was for Business of Fashion, and they had just started too, imran, oh, wow, okay, they started this as a blog and I wrote about the ethics of luxury, or a deeper luxury, about the environment and luxury.
Speaker 2:I was always interested in humanitarian focus, or bettering the planner, making change, but also through avenues of beauty, you know, or art or luxury, and so I wrote that piece for him. And then he had another. He was working on another site called Luxury Society, so I ended up writing for there too, but I had, you know, I had barely any contacts at that point or any experience, so I was just sort of learning as I went along and I just thought, well, this is great, I can continue writing and on the side I'll make a little bit of money and I'll have a full-time job in an art gallery or a museum or something else. And then this just kept increasing and I got more and more commissions while I was working at this art gallery in Abu Dhabi, and then I was led.
Speaker 2:You know, I kind of was hoping that I would get a magazine job, because I loved magazines and this was kind of before you know really the whole digital sphere that we're working in now, and so, yeah, my first editorial job was with Canvas Magazine. So I had worked, you know, I'd done done writing for a variety of different international and and regional sites, mostly out of you know, the us new york, uh, london and then canvas took me on and and that was where I learned really about how it was to put together a magazine you know from.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think I just want to say that this was kind of like at the beginning of kind of this whole wave of magazines in the region. I feel like you really saw a moment where a lot was shifting regarding the information that was out there, the type of stories that came out, and I think you really were such a pioneer in the beginning of that sort of whole movement. And we'll get into what came after. But how was it at the beginning of that sort of whole movement and we'll get into what came after? But how was it at the time? Like so was canvas still kind of new and upcoming and how did it feel to kind of be like shaping that dialogue, that discourse in a way?
Speaker 2:well, I learned a lot from canvas because I came, I had come, you know, post-war and contemporary modern art background with my BA in Renaissance and and an ancient Roman and Greek arts, so this was totally new for me. I didn't know much about the art in the Middle East, the art in the Arab world and this region, and so it was canvas was like at the time. It was really, I mean, and it still is, a leading, you know, publication for art and culture in the region, but it was really the golden age, I'd say, of the magazine. I mean, we there was all sorts of collaborations with. We did this book with Bulgari, which was really incredible, pairing jewelry, high jewelry, with artworks and then text. So I it was extremely innovative and you know I was able to learn about artists from Lebanon, from Syria, egypt, saudi Arabia, you know it was. So I it was, it was really quite for me, it was extremely educational and at the same time, of course, it was a very fast-paced environment because you're learning how to deliver articles on artists, on major topics and new museums. You know, very quickly I can, I can also mention like, during this time, you know I was, you know I was here, so I was able to attend the opening of the Mataf Museum of Modern Arab Art in Doha.
Speaker 2:That was the first really major museum for modern contemporary art from the Arab world. So that was 2010 that opened, and two years before, the Pei Museum of Islamic art, also opened in Doha. So this was a time, yeah, that everything was kind of really taking off in the region. At the same time, it also was the period of the Arab Spring, so 2011,. There was just, you know, a lot happening politically in the region too, and that obviously affected the region and it was. There was a lot of focus on it and it was it was growing. It was Christie's had opened in Dubai. There was big auctions taking place for the first time. So this was really like, like you said, it was the beginning.
Speaker 1:Right, exactly and like. This is exactly why I wanted to speak to you, because I think that you have such a unique perspective on how that timeline went. And then we all remember. So Christie's opened, followed by Vogue Arabia, as well had opened I think they started around 2015, 16, something like that and, of course, harper's Bazaar, et cetera, et cetera. There was never like the Arabia titles of magazines. So, even as young journalists, even if you did want to write for whatever it was publication, you didn't have much to aspire to. You didn't have much to look for in the region. To be perfectly honest, there weren't many options. Eventually, you did it. You did actually become the editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar Arabia, right, yeah, I had another job.
Speaker 2:I had two other editor jobs before then that were sort of I kind of crashed course in learning how to edit a magazine.
Speaker 1:I edited so.
Speaker 2:Canvas. Obviously I love Canvas, yeah, which was I learned a lot there. But I was always interested in fashion and luxury as well. I, you know, I love beautiful things and so I kind of wanted to combine, or find a way to combine my love for art modern, contemporary art but also history, luxury, fashion, lifestyle, all that stuff and all of that, and I was doing a little bit of reporting on the side on those topics while I, while I was in canvas, they were really kind to let me do that, um. And then I just to mention I think an important magazine to add is there. When you're mentioning that there wasn't a lot um of publications then for people to write for, it's true, there was a really cool publication called unfair that was published for a few years that was had amazing design.
Speaker 2:It was was edited by Sophia Galati, who um of course yeah. Yeah, mill worlds, I'm sure people will know. Yes, but that was something I looked up to because it was just edgy and cool and different and talking about Arab identity and culture. But during a time of change and and opening Um so then I I was led to edit a magazine that doesn't exist anymore called Masquerade, that some people from Unfair also edited. That magazine briefly.
Speaker 2:And that was yeah, that was sort of how I was able to learn how to put a magazine together. I mean, there's no, you know, no one ever really taught me how to do it, so I just learned that way and I was able to kind of, you know, put all the content together and do these amazing shoots. We did shoots in Morocco and Cordoba, venice. Even so, it was a real kind of despite how chaotic, you know, running a magazine is. I learned a lot from that experience. Running a magazine is I learned a lot from that experience.
Speaker 2:And then I I briefly edited for for a year New York Times Style Magazine had the T Emirates edition, which was a great, which was a great fit, and I edited that. And Bloomberg Businessweek had this another supplement, executive. Was it executive style? So, yeah, those were yeah, so that was. Those were cool experiences too. And unfortunately the T T Emirates edition didn't continue. They also had a T Qatar for a while. And then someone approached me from ITP for Harper's Bazaar and I I obviously was was really keen to do it because it's an international title and Well, because every girl's dream job.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? Like, this is kind of like when you think of when, at when anyone? Um, you know, I don't know, I think I don't know if this is the because of the movies or whatever it is, but an editor-in-chief of a magazine like Harper's Bazaar, I think, in a career is kind of such an interesting thing to take on, specifically since it was Arabia.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it, it, it definitely was. And I I remember, you know it came, I just sort of this someone popped up in my inbox my publisher at the time it doesn't even work there anymore and she said I'd love to meet you and I thought, great, and I was looking for something that would be. You know, I think, more obviously, magazine publishing can be a bit more stable, just magazine publishing particularly. I think, even more so now. But it's just, with all the changes in the digital landscape and AI, it's just it's kind of gone through a crisis and I wanted to be in a place where I could grow and have a you know a title that was that I could work on continuously for a few years at least. And, you know, even while all of this, this change was happening. And so, yes, it worked out.
Speaker 2:I first joined Harper's Bazaar Art as a contributing editor and I did some work on Harper's Bazaar Interiors and Harper's Bazaar Arabia, and then I was made the editor-in-chief of Harper's Bazaar Art, harper's Bazaar Interiors, and I also edited another magazine. Of course, that gave me quite a few to do Villa 88, which I don't know if a lot of people know this, but yeah, it's a magazine yes, yeah, but yeah, mostly for Emirati woman, a very bespoke magazine, um, so it was an incredible experience. So I, I edited Harper's Bazaar art, these magazines for Harper's art for a total of around six years and, yeah, it was, it was. It was a dream job in many ways because I was able to travel the world, travel the region, create a magazine on my, on my, my own, every it was bi-monthly and then turned quarterly and really get to know the people and the places and the history and the culture and, yeah, that make up this region. So it was, it was truly, you know, a wonderful opportunity.
Speaker 2:And harper's bazaar interiors too, which came after I was given, was another opportunity, because I originally was hesitant because I, you know, I'm so focused on art and culture and I was I didn't know how interiors would be, but then I got really interested in and I met a lot of designers that are very much like artists and are creating these really cool furniture pieces and I was able to kind of mix, you know, furniture interiors with art design and obviously inject a bit of fashion as well. So it was, it was. They were dream jobs, but very challenging, a lot of work. That's what people don't realize. It looks very, you know, jet setting and wonderful and glamorous, but it's a huge amount of work and responsibility.
Speaker 1:And I think so this kind of laid the groundwork. I suppose you now, with just the educational background, having edited Harper's Bazaar Arabia in the realm of art and as well as interiors, it kind of makes perfect sense for you to move into kind of writing on all of these topics at such an expansive and in-depth level. So you left Harper's Bazaar Arabia and went on to sort of to build this incredible career that ended up being. Kind of you ended up writing about the arts, not only in Saudi Arabia, about the arts not only in Saudi Arabia, not only writing a book but contributing to magazines like Artnet and the like. So how did you kind of adapt your storytelling style to different types of publications? Or is there always like a Rebecca style that people really want and go for, like a you perspective?
Speaker 2:That's a great question, noor, because the challenges of being, I'd say, freelance I prefer the word independent because I think yes, I don't think freelance either.
Speaker 1:I feel like it doesn't do it justice. It is independent journalism. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that you, especially in today, and I, I and I now write. You know, since I left at the end of 2019, right before COVID, I've written I mean not just on art and culture and luxury and lifestyle and design and architecture, but I, you know, I've I've covered, like the Beirut explosion and COVID, I had to do a lot of news reporting, reporting so, and I actually wanted that, maybe that's I wanted to kind of have that experience of writing a bit more, capturing more of the human voice in crisis situations or challenges, which I get in art reporting as well, because I think artists very much take the pulse of what's happening around them. They're very much affected by the politics and the society of the reality that they're living and the context that they're living. But I did, I did learn, and I still it's something that I still have to do I did learn that I have to adapt my voice and style of writing and reporting to the publication that I'm writing on. You know, I, I have.
Speaker 2:I had been doing a huge amount of work in Saudi Arabia and I suddenly, luckily, when I left Harper's and right before COVID too, I came on board to Arab News for regular work. It was really great that that came when it did, because I learned a huge amount about, you know, quick, fast reporting, you know more newsy style, but also, yeah, adapting to sort of more geopolitical analysis, and that was something that really interested me and also focused and it also focused a lot on Saudi Arabia, which at the time was going through, and it's still going through, a huge amount of change. So I was able to really get a pulse on the country during this moment, which, as you know, led to the book that I wrote with Ali El-Sinoussi, but that required a whole, a way of you know reportage that I was using, I think, with Harper's Bazaar art, because I generally I've always used a more journalistic style when I've been art in advance. But when you're writing on, however, when you're writing on an art exhibition or artist, I mean it's definitely much more descriptive, I'd say, and you know you're really delving into an artwork, looking at the brushstrokes, sometimes even speculating.
Speaker 2:Delving into an artwork, looking at the brushstrokes, sometimes even speculating about what the artwork means to you and that's not necessarily to you or to the audience and then placing that within a larger context of how the artist or the curator sees the show or what they wanted to accomplish. So it's a very different form of, I think, analysis and approach than to quick, fast reportage. So when COVID was sort of finishing and I could actually go out and see art exhibitions again and write on them, I found myself a little rusty and a little flustered because I had gotten so used to going fast, fast, fast.
Speaker 2:Like you know, you're covering the Bayreuth explosion I wrote about, not I mean for ArtNetnet, for the art newspaper, but also I remember, I remember this, yeah, it was, yes, yeah, local newspapers and I got very, um, I was very affected by it myself personally, because I'm very attached to Lebanon. Yes, but that was all fast, you know, very reporting style, style of journalism. I wouldn't say it's exhibition review, obviously. So when I actually in 2000, I think it was what summer of 2021 or 22. And I was able to go out and see exhibitions that were being held, I found myself in the beginning kind of struggling, just getting struggling to get the words and the format right again. And now just getting struggling to to get the words and the format right again. And now, now, now I have it, but you kind of have to shift back and forth, um, that's really interesting, like I mean, I think that I haven't heard someone articulate it like that before.
Speaker 1:So, honestly, like truly, it isn't all like you are a journalist, but it's not all the same type of reporting or pace or kind of like technique that is required and not everyone, I believe, can do both. I think it's really difficult. I think for many it's kind of like you have a style, that's my style. I'm in that sort of box and I can't really, you know, kind of get out of it. But you've managed to really traverse like the liminal lines between all of many different types of styles of journalism. And then I want to circle back, since you mentioned it, and kind of touch on the book that you wrote with, obviously, alia Al-Sinousi, who we've had on the podcast recently, which is why I think it's an incredible thing that we're having you on now too. Arts in Saudi Arabia. There has not been a book of this kind, I believe, before. Correct me if I'm wrong. So I think this was kind of a very interesting and pioneering book. Can you tell me a little bit about how it came about and the process of writing it?
Speaker 2:bit about how it came about in the process of writing it. Uh, yes, yes, um, and just to just to confirm no, there there has never been a book published. The focus is so closely on contemporary art during this time of change in in saudi arabia. I mean, canvas has published books on art in the kingdom, but that's something that looks within a contextual, more analytical framework.
Speaker 2:This is of its kind. There was another book called Changing Saudi Arabia. It's actually in front of me, right here on my still the stack of books that I use to research the book that I wrote by a professor in the US His last name is Folly that but looked within, looked, looked, analyzed the creative scene, but more looking at, I think, youtube skits and kind of film and cinema. And he did touch on the creative scene, but this Ali and I really focused on contemporary art, since that's the field that we both have we're very much in and and so, yes, it is the first of its kind and I think that's why, when Ali approached me about working country that's going through, I'd say, you know, bombastic changes from how it was just 10 years ago to how it is today.
Speaker 2:It can be overwhelming. But Ali reached out. She'd seen that I'd been covering the kingdom, you know, for years and obviously doing a lot with Arab news and other publications focused on Saudi, and she thought I'd be the you know, I guess, the right fit to collaborate with someone who could collaborate on the book, and I had been reporting on various different exhibitions, like Desert X and other shows that were happening during this that were taking place in 2019, 2020, you know, during a time where it was, people were very hesitant to cover Saudi and I luckily had some editors.
Speaker 1:That that's interesting because Alia did say the same thing. I mean, there was a hesitation and so you got you both of you taking on this book, was it was a real statement and and, given the reception and how incredibly successful it's been, I think that it says a lot about the appetite, like I mean, obviously people want to read more and learn more and and, but. But I mean, continue, tell me more about how, how the process was and how the reception was.
Speaker 2:most importantly, yeah, um, I, I luckily had some editors uh, at ArtNet at the time and who you know were able to run, or they agreed to run, some of the pieces that I suggested and pitched, because a lot of other publications and I am a lot of other publications were very hesitant, were very hesitant, and they, you know I was able to do, to do stories that kind of tried to put in context what was happening but didn't, you know, shy away from some of the more challenging historical, geopolitical context that obviously has shaped the image of the country which is at the time.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of organizations even boycotting a saudi art organizations, among other organizations. Yeah, um, so, but I was, when alia, when alia asked approached me about the book, I was already feeling very frustrated because I had been doing a lot of reporting there. Uh, I went to the first red sea international film festival, I mean a lot of the first events, and I was impressed. Yes, there were things that you know didn't go well, I mean the you know things that could have been improved, but it was the first time and it was the first time that a country that had been more or less closed for 40 years was doing this, and I remember someone at the film festival, a Saudi woman told me she was looking at a review that had come out in an international publication that was criticizing Saudi for holding a film festival because of a human rights track record.
Speaker 2:It's a human rights record, according to the international community, saying, you know, we're damned if we hold a film festival, but we're damned if we don't, because we've been criticized for not having cinemas open for so many years. And obviously the first cinema, the cinemas have opened in saudi for the last few years and they had been closed for decades, even though they should know that there has been a saudi film festival that was courageously held for I don't know the amount of years, but in dahran, in the eastern province, for a long time, even before cinemas reopened. So I was feeling that some of the criticism. Well, there are some major challenges. For sure, there's challenges around the world and there's definitely extremely you know, there's been extremely tumultuous events that have happened over the last decade in Saudi, as there have been in other parts of the world too. But there's been things that have happened over the last decade in Saudi, as there have been in other parts of the world too, but there's been things that have really questioned what it means to be what, what our freedom of expression means today in the world, and obviously now we're dealing with it almost on a daily basis, also in my own country, in America, and in a different, in a different way.
Speaker 2:Obviously without getting into the nitty gritty, but I was feeling frustrated because I thought that perhaps some of the reviews that were being written on and just sort of bashing what was happening wasn't really giving the Saudis and some of the artists and the creatives a real chance to speak and be visible on their own terms.
Speaker 2:Because what a government, what takes place, um, politically in a country is not always you know what the people want or what the people have, you know, done themselves, and I think it's, I think it was important to, to have the saudi artists and creatives you know also, uh, explain how it's been to create over the last few decades, or or even during this moment of change. So when aliaia asked me to do the book, I said yes. I knew it was going to be very challenging, not just to put the book together, because obviously there's still maybe less so now, but there was also fear for a while in Saudi about international press and interviews, because sometimes they feel that they have been misrepresented and sort of pigeonholed into, you know, a dialogue that maybe wasn't necessarily theirs yes yes, so I, you know, and obviously you know they'd known me.
Speaker 2:A lot of the artists have known me before, you know they've. So they trusted, know, trusted me and were able to continue with the interviews. But I also knew it was going to be challenging for me psychologically and it was because I'm I've never had a situation where I have to write a book appealing, trying to cater to a Saudi audience, something that would be acceptable and comfortable for a Saudi audience going through change and at the same time, you know something that would suit not necessarily suit but answer international community or the West, so to say, concerns about the country. And how do you bring those two halves together? It's almost impossible and there are things that were, yeah, that were very struggling for me, a huge struggle for me to put into words, even because of my own upbringing.
Speaker 2:I have been brought up with, you know, an American education that sees the world and sees life, and I say life, society and in certain, in certain ways, but I've also been living in in the middle east and in this region and I understand other ways of being and other ways of looking at governments and structures. So, and also free speech, you know how. How does art relate to freedom of expression? Can? The biggest question I think in the book is can you have, can you have, an art scene in a, in a society that's not technically, you know, completely free and open by, I guess, at the time, western standards we're seeing Interesting yeah, yeah, at the time I mean right now, obviously we're I don't know what place is free and completely free and open. I think that that needs to be. That could be another podcast or a very challenging one.
Speaker 1:Exactly, it's such an interesting question and I think I think it actually is kind of perfect the dynamic of you as well as Alia writing this book, because I don't think it would have worked otherwise had it been just the perspective of someone who perhaps is Middle Eastern or perhaps Western or either, or I think it is a dialogue that requires a back and forth and kind of like a perspective that is another. And how did you feel the reception was? I mean, I saw that I went to one talk for the book at Art Week back at Al-Sirqal Avenue in November last year and I mean it was like a full house. There was like no space to sit. People obviously have been interested. How has the feedback been?
Speaker 2:Well, it's been very good. After I finished it I think I wanted to run into the ocean or the sea and just like forget the whole thing. It was a lot to put to it. Just writing a book in general is hard, it's just very hard. I think, no matter what genre of book you're writing, this one I had to, you know, be concerned Not just because of the sort of cultural, social and cultural innuendos between you know, the region and the international community, but also just because there'sos between you know, the region and the international community, but also just because there's not, there's very, there's very little documentation on the Saudi art scene and Saudi art history in Saudi. So we're also concerned with you know, if there's mistakes or inaccuracies. So it was just, it was challenging, but I've been really happy that we've people have been so interested in the book and it seems to have sold really well. I mean, people keep, when it came out, people kept telling me they're buying copies. I've we've been asked to speak many times in London at various different venues and conferences. Presented the book in Paris. Conferences presented the book in Paris, new York, dubai, riyadh. It's been presented and received quite well.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously there has been one or two voices from abroad, who've from abroad, who've maybe criticized it slightly for not going more heavily into a critical tone of different practices and the state of affairs perhaps in the country or the Gulf, but I was expecting that. I think it's the geopolitical lens in which people view art and culture in the region. That comes from abroad is going to always be challenging because things are being done in a different way, it's a different time for the region, and so I expected that, I tried to, we tried to answer to, we tried to sort of foresee the criticism and and we answered to that and and obviously people are going to have different viewpoints, but overall I got, you know, we've received good feedback and I think it's answered questions. And the major question which the publisher presented to is, you know, is Saudi Arabia? Is this art washing? And I don't. I don't believe that what the Gulf countries are doing with art and culture is is completely art washing, um, and I think you have to be really careful with that term. And so we were.
Speaker 2:We used this opportunity to to tackle a real difficult question by delving into the the history of the culture, of the society of a country that has been very misunderstood and that had most people do not. Most people had no historical and cultural context, um of so I think there's a lot of positive, um, yeah, a lot of positive things have come from it. I mean, obviously there's still a lot of misunderstanding, um, especially as all eyes right now are on the gulf, um, you know, not just in our culture, but for business. I mean, you've just had the announcement of our Basel Qatar taking place in Doha. Yes, there are challenges here, there's challenges elsewhere, but ultimately, what I also tried to show in the book and you know, the term art washing obviously is challenging, problematic, I don't even like saying it and the term art washing obviously is challenging, problematic, I don't even like saying it but to counteract gas, because they're very aware of the need to diversify their economies and that in itself, to explain that and delve deep into it, which I don't think a lot of art journals have done, and I can understand why, because this is very much, this is very much a business idea, a business but also a cultural idea was important in the book.
Speaker 2:And to give a history of also, what does a creative economy mean and why is? The ultimate question is why is Saudi investing so much money in art. You could ask the same question why is Qatar investing so much money in art? Why has the UAE done it? Why is this important for these countries?
Speaker 1:And we tried to in a very short amount of pages, answer these huge questions, and for me I think it's really interesting. I mean, obviously you touched on pretty much all of the topics, I believe, that were top of mind in that book and the idea of a creative economy is essentially it's what we're going through. I mean, everyone keeps saying it's a cultural renaissance and that's exactly kind of what it is. But building the creative economy from scratch, kind of reshaping it, what's going on? All of these questions would not have been answered in a short form article or, like you know, even a podcast or et cetera. It needed sort of like a long form book that you would be able to read and perhaps understand more. So I just completely congratulate you on taking on this project, because I think it was a big risk, but I think it definitely kind of completely took you as a journalist in your career and as a writer into a totally new realm.
Speaker 1:I think my next question for you is obviously we've spoken about so many roles that you've taken in the world of journalism as an editor, as a writer, as an independent journalism. So, journalist, I just want to know what career advice would you give to kind of someone who is looking to become, I want to say a journalist, but I mean, we're in the digital age, so obviously you can be a journalist in many different ways. Now Do you have any great career advice that you've kind of used over the years? And also, how is it that you kind of continue to pick up projects that are interesting for you?
Speaker 2:because now I know that you're in a place where you kind of have a lot of choice, which is amazing yeah, um, I think my advice would probably be more character building, because I something that I always hear in my head, especially during really difficult moments, because I've had, you know, I've done, obviously, I've taken on some very interesting projects, but there's been moments where I've wanted to quit and I haven't wanted to. I haven't wanted to finish a project or I haven't wanted to finish an article, or I asked myself why have I done this? Or I haven't wanted to finish an article, or I ask myself why have I done this? I just hear a voice that says you know, keep going, you know, just show up. And I'm also a former ballerina.
Speaker 2:I trained very seriously in university and I think that discipline of always getting up and always going on it's given me a stamina and a grit that I think has helped me a lot in this industry, which is very challenging. I think it's particularly challenging at the moment because no one knows what to trust, what to read. People aren't reading as much. I have editors that tell me you know, write 300, 500 words, not 800 or a thousand, which is understandable because people scroll these days they're much more social media reading attacks. So I have moments where, you know, I ask you know why am I doing this? And it's hard, and you also deal with a lot of difficult personalities, because deadlines are such a bane of our existence as writers or editors or authors, or editors or authors. But the thing that's always carried me forward is to, even if I'm feeling really, really down and having one of the worst days, is to get up and just try my best and go forward. It's been hard for me sometimes to give boundaries and limits. I think and maybe that also comes from dance, because we were trained to always kind of get up and be resilient and keep moving. I think it's really important. I will emphasize and I know you're also a Pilates teacher, noor yes, I'm a Pilates teacher.
Speaker 2:I am a big believer in self-care. I often give myself more self-care and more balance, and I think that if, whatever industry you're going into today, I think we're all faced with a lot of challenges, because our entire environment is changing in good ways but also, I think, in negative ways. You know there's the rise of AI and tech is. They're very exciting and positive tools, but we still don't quite know yet how to use them. And so I think that you know, and I think we're in a moment of a lot of uncertainty. You could argue that anytime in history there's been a lot of uncertainty, but there's a lot of changes in the way we deal with our daily life and existence and travels and whatnot.
Speaker 2:So I, yeah, my biggest advice is is to have faith and to believe in yourself and to go on even when it's really hard. And I now, you know, I've been on my own more or less running my own business since I left Harper's and that's also been hard, because sometimes you know you deal with a variety of different clients and cash flow and and and that that presents its own challenges. So I just, I constantly tell myself you know, just keep going. And if you can keep going, if you can keep moving it's like if you're, if you're a runner, if you're a dancer, if you can keep moving, you know you're going to get to your destination. Something will happen. You're putting energy out there and so it will come back. But at the same time, be be kind to yourself. I haven't always been as kind as I should be to myself, so that's my advice In terms of how I keep finding interesting projects. I think you know, after a certain point in one's career, first you're chasing things, first you're pitching. You know you're putting a lot out there, a lot of energy, yeah, then it comes. I still pitch. I still have to, you know, get out there and give an idea and maybe someone likes it. Maybe they don't like it, maybe they don't even respond, but you get to a point where things you know things do come to you, they present themselves to you as opportunities and I think that's that's been nice over the last few years. Things have come to me.
Speaker 2:The Saudi book was something that came to me. I didn't pitch that idea, I was feeling I mean it was almost like I manifested it because I was feeling so frustrated that things that the changes in Saudi sort of the art scene and society, I didn't feel that it was being presented in a balanced way internationally. And then suddenly Ali presented this book to me and other things that I, other clients and opportunities have also come up. I've done a lot with Africa. We didn't talk about that, but it's been, you know, a big part of also my love and interests and art and African society. And so like I'm supporting, I'd like to support a school of a school in the Congo for girls called Malaika. I now sponsor a child.
Speaker 2:But I was invited right when I left Harper's by Noella Kosadas, who's just, who's moving to Dubai, who's the founder, she's Congolese Cypriot and she's moving to Dubai in July. But she invited me and right when I was leaving the magazine and I decided to accept and to go and from that I've learned a lot about the Congolese art scene. I've been able to learn about the school and support when I can. So I think things, if you have an open mind and an open heart, I think things come to you. I mean other clients too, like I'm doing a little bit of PR and communications now for a few different entities in Dubai and some other luxury brands, and these have kind of come word of mouth. Keep open-minded about, about life and about being creative and being, you know, curious. I think things really interesting, things come. I curated a show, my first ever show in Africa, at a gallery in Lagos in November that was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was cool. It was a bit nerve wracking because I've never done that in Africa before, but that was experience to where I mean they're mostly they're all young, young to mid-career artists. So I definitely, you know, I think, seize the opportunity, try not to doubt yourself. I definitely continue to doubt myself in moments, but then I just tell myself to go and show up and try my best and and something, something good will come, even if you know you, you will make mistakes. I've made many mistakes in my career and something good will come, even if you know you will make mistakes. I've made many mistakes in my career and I'm sure I will continue to make them, whether it's a small typo or something else. But I think the important part is that you just you wake up the next day, or even if it's during the day, and you just go on again and you try and go on in a way that has a good intention and I think good things will come.
Speaker 1:I love that, I really do. And I think it brings us perfectly to my final question, which is, since the podcast is called the Curation, I would love to know kind of what is your curation, curated by Rebecca, to know kind of what is your curation, curated by Rebecca, of things that are kind of like non-negotiables in your life, that are, you know, pillars that keep you either motivated, that you can't go without, that you'd love to recommend to the audience, and it can be anything you know from, like a drink or a sport or whatever it is uh well, I loved, I still love, to dance.
Speaker 2:I'm um dance and do and do pilates. I'm a very active person and I find myself, if I don't, if I don't do this, if I don't work out or do something physical, I mean almost on a daily basis I I know that sounds probably extreme for some people, but I think it's because I trained so much as a child and into my early adult life that keeps me sane, and if I don't, if I can't do it, I just find myself getting a little bit more agitated. And so that's definitely an aspect of my life that I'm trying to, no matter what, even if I'm on holiday with friends or if I'm on a work trip, if I have to go to the gym or do something in my room, like that's something that I need to have in my life and I need to be even more disciplined about keeping it in my life. Yeah, yeah, and I know, I know you have a similar passion, but I do.
Speaker 1:I mean the first. The thing that I love most is that you know if you're here like covering something so important as, for example, the grand addiction museum, you're like, but I need to go to pilates class, I need to I mean, I don't know like how do you find time to do that, rebecca?
Speaker 2:but but you do. It probably seems ridiculous to a lot of people because the most important you're, you know, the most important thing I'm there to do is to cover gem in the museum like I.
Speaker 1:I think my audience loves like little details like that, because that's how you keep yourself like functioning at a high level. No, like yeah.
Speaker 2:I think. But I also realized, you know, there's a saying in Italian, I'll say it in English that you sounds probably more more sexy in Italian, more romantic, but you learn something. You learn different things and you kind of put them aside and then they come back and they all work together. Like I think, going to a Pilates class with you, noor, and Cairo, and training with you, like I'm also immersing myself into, into the culture of Cairo and I'm meeting new people and you never know, like I could ask those people what their thoughts are on the Grand Egyptian Museum, or I could. You know, this gives me, this adds to my experience, and so I'm not just there, I'm going on a reporting. I mean, obviously it is important to go on to do the work and to do what you're there to do, but I really love immersing myself in the cultures. Of course that's a key thing for me. I don't like the idea of parachute journalism.
Speaker 1:I mean not to not to criticize other people's style, but I really I like to go to a place and build a relationship and come back and you know whether it's successful in so many, in so many ways, like you'll fully immerse, you'll go out to dinner, you'll, you'll speak to people and create kind of like a community wherever you go, and that way you have, like you said, perspectives If you need opinions, if you need more perspective for your articles. It's incredible, but so you mentioned dance and Pilates. What else is a non-negotiable for you?
Speaker 2:I mean I love, I love going, I love food, I love eating well, so I love going out for a really good meal and a drink with friends or family. That's key for me, in whatever country I'm in. I really love having a good meal with people around me I meanines, or just relishing cuisines that I love. I mean, obviously I love Italian food, but I also love Asian. I love Arab food, arabic food.
Speaker 2:I love Persian food, so, yeah, eating well. I love music. I mean I listen to music like all day long. I sometimes take breaks when I'm writing or doing work and listen to music. I have to dance around my house. I know that seems probably crazy, but like that's something that I kind of is part of how I operate. Um, and yeah, so I mean music. I love electronic music, um, from classical electronic to, you know, rap, r&b but, yeah, I've, I listened to a lot of electronic recently.
Speaker 2:Um, and reading a good book um, when I have a time when I have, I always try and read as much as I can. I'm probably not reading as much as I used to, just life is so hectic these days, but I always like to have a good book, um, with me and um, and, yeah, I also love when I'm in dubai and well, also in rome. I live between rome and dubai now I, I love water, I love going to the beach or to the pool. I, water is really important for me.
Speaker 2:I think I am someone that is a little bit, probably hyperactive, and I I have a lot of different passions, a lot of things I want to do, and just water is something, you know, it's an element that really calms me and I just I really need to be in places that have a body of water nearby. You know, in Italy, I love going to the beach or being in the sea on a boat. In Dubai, the same thing. I love going to the beach with friends or just even on my own sometimes. So it's, yeah, this is kind of what what comes to me. I do do yoga, I try and also meditate, if I can. I try and meditate every day sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't but um that's yeah.
Speaker 1:Honestly, I feel like that is the most kind of romanticized answer I've ever gotten. It's like and living between Rome and Dubai forever. I will be so jealous of this. It's like the most beautiful balance. But thank you so much, Rebecca, for your time, for your insights and your perspective. I'm so happy that I finally got you on the podcast and I'm sure this is going to be the first of many episodes to come. So thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you for having me, Noor. It's been a great pleasure, Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Make sure to follow at Rebecca and Proctor on Instagram to keep up and stay updated with all of Rebecca's newest ventures, and at the Creation Podcast for our upcoming episodes.